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Misha is going on about a story that Bill Quick mentions here.
Apparently, a judge in Indiana is telling a Wiccan couple that they can’t teach their child their religion.
Now, it’s a highly flawed ruling, and most certainly will be overturned on appeal.  I’d say that’s pretty much cut and dried.  The parents have the right to teach their kid what they will – end of story.  Absolutely no argument there.
But for my part, I’m having a hard time being sympathetic towards these guys.  The Wiccans I’ve dealt with over the years, both here and in the old BBS days, have expressed nothing but an abject hatred of Christianity and all things Christian.  They’re the types that scream bloody murder whenever we dare to interject our ideas into the governing of this country.  It’s my opinion that they, along with all the other anti-Christian bigots, would just as soon see us go away. (Not to worry, guys – a lot of us will be, very soon.)
So you’ll pardon me if I’d like to see Christianity be given slightly more respect before I start screaming over the rights of these Wiccans.  When I see the same outrage over the desecration of the Bible that I’ve seen the past couple of weeks over the alleged  (and later debunked) desecration of the Qu’ran…then  we can talk.
Not until.
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19 responses to “On Wiccans & the right to raise your own kids”
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I’m confused… are you for discrimination or against? You seem to think it is OK to deprive a small minority of thier rights, until you feel that everyone bends over backwards enough to Christians.
These Wiccans send their son to a Catholic school, being as it is probably far better and far safer than the local public school. Don’t sound too “anti-Christian” to me.
The Wiccans I know don’t hate Christianity, they are just sick of having it shoved down their throats. They get significantly less tolerance from the Christians than more mainstream minority religions.
Would you have written this post if parents in question were Jewish? (And yes I have known Jewish kids who were sent to Catholic school because the education was better and the safety greater than the public school… should their parents have been restricted from teaching them Torah?)
sry spats,
i agree with Zendo on this. my sister is wiccian and i am atheist. we dont hate christians, we hate having their beliefs shoved down our throat. we hate that we get no respect for our beliefs. we’re sick of people trying to “Save” us every time we mention our eeeeevil lack of “faith”, or how if we dont “find jesus” we’ll burn in hell. it gets real irritating real quick. how would the christians like it if everytime they said or did something we called them Stupid/Dilusional/Hypocrits/etc like they call us Heathans/Pagens/Sinners/NonBelivers etc.. i guarentee they wouldnt like it too much and would raise quite the fuss.
But what constitutes “having Christianity shoved down our throats”?
Of course there are zealots. But there are zealots in every religion/faith.
They’re also just as annoying as the “Christian” variety.
“How would christians like it if everytime they said or did something we called them Stupid/Dilusional/Hypoccrits?etc.”
Liz, it seems nowadays that Christians are routinely called “Stupid/Dilusional/Hypocrits/etc.”.
It’s just that Christians are tired of turning the other cheek and have started to fight back.
I’m not getting on your case, I’m a lapsed Episcopalian and I’m sure those same zealots that get on your case would tell me that “I’m on the express elevator to hell.” as well.
😉
LOL E-man, i have NEVER known (or met) a meek christian. they’ve been anything but.
i’ll tell you just one of many stories about my sister and brother in-laws. born again christians. go to church (and drag their two kids) 3-4 times a week. each year they give me pamphlets on why i should never allow my son to trick or treat on halloween. and the lectures, cursing and stuff i have to listen too. one year in particular the “church” was putting on an “adult getaway” they rented cabins up in the blue ridge mountains (georgia-about a 4-5 hour ride from our house) and the weekend was supposed to be filled with paint ball games, horseback riding, basketball games, that kind of stuff. so me and my hubby said “sure sounds like fun” it cost us $400 (200 each) to include our cabin, food, and all activities. WELL lets just say it was ANYTHING BUT an “adult getaway” there not only was kids everywhere but it was nothing more than a full blown REVIVAL WEEKEND! no games, no paintball, no horseys, nothing! our “cabin” should have been condemned 40 years ago and didnt even have hot water! our breakfast on this “adult getaway” was served from 530AM to 630AM. so not only did we have to get up way early if we wanted to eat we had to be one of the first in line because there was never enough to go around. When we confronted her about bold faced LYING to us she said “well if you didnt want to attend revival weekend why did you come? what did you THINK it was gonna be? its put on by the church!” i told her i THOUGHT it was gonna be what she said it was gonna be and what the PAMPHLET I FILLED OUT SAID IT WAS GONNA BE! (the pamphlet/release form confirmed what she had originally told me and there was NO mention of revival weekend. to make matters worse we were stuck there for the whole weekend cause we rode up with her. $400 for REVIVAL WEEKEND for an atheist is sheer torture.
Christians think nothing of telling you that will be damned (they missed the part about the timber in your eye, the mote in your neighbors eye, judge not lest you get judged, vengence is mine, said the lord, love your neighbor, let him who is without sin cast the first stone etc.)
We have Christian holidays designated as national holidays Christmas isn’t a national holiday because of philosphy – no matter what O’Reilly says every year. Christmas is national holiday because there are enough Christians to ram it down the rest our throats every year. The best revenge is that it has for the most part become – on the national level – almost entirely about comerce and presents.
And I don’t know if they still do it, but when I was in school Good Friday was a holiday, and Spring break was always Easter week. This was at a public school.
But hey, Christians are the down-troden group in the 21st century. Just ask these parents who were told by the state they could not teach their son a Non-Christian religion.
(And the lies told to get an atheist to attend a revival weekend are “justified” because they are trying to save you. After all, that’s why the inquisition burned people at the stake; it was to save them.)
i dont want to get “even” i just want them to leave me the hell alone. a little “respect” for my beliefs would be nice.
“Revenge”, Zendo?  “Revenge”?
In my experience, revenge  is only sought against those whom are hated.  Thank you very  much for proving my point.  I rest my case.
But to answer your first question:
No.  The Jewish people worship the same Creator God that Christians do – and for that, they are similarly reviled (though not necessarily by the same people).
And no, I see nothing wrong with that, nor are you likely to convince me otherwise, so you can save your breath.
To my knowledge, we don’t go around seeking “revenge” on them.
E-man’s right, though:  How, exactly, do you define “shoving”?  We are instructed to share what we know, and let you make the decision; if you call that “shoving”, then yeah – we’re gonna shove.
I understand that some folks may be more forceful and dynamic than others.  Most of these people can be reasoned with – but you don’t appear to want to do that.
Liz:
Liz, I’m sorry that happened to you.  It sounds like your relatives are a bit too overexuberent when it comes to witnessing.  Someone should probably tell them that folks cannot be led to Christ at the point of a gun.
The fact is that yes – we do believe that those who die without having accepted Christ as personal Lord & Savior face eternal seperation from God from that point forward.  It is not a pleasant prospect, to say the least – and personally, I care enough about you that I’d like to see you avoid such a fate if at all possible.
However, that is your decision to make.  Neither I nor anyone else can force you to make it.  I can’t save you – indeed, I can’t even save myself; how would I save you?
Getting back to your relatives, I have one question:  Knowing what you knew about them, and (I’m assuming) wanting to avoid that, why did you go with them in the first place?  Did you even ask who was sponsoring the weekend?  I understand that it was a most unpleasant experience for you guys, but wouldn’t it have been prudent to ask a question here or there?
it was just after we had gotten married. i think i had known her for about a month. my husband hadnt seen her in years (divorce). our son was 2 months old at the time. we really could have used the break which is why we coughed up the dough (which then was a whole paycheck). and yes of course i asked her questions, lots of them, i wasnt gonna just hand over 400 bucks without finding out what it was all about. she did say it was sponsered by the church as a “community event” thats when she told me about all the “fun” stuff they were gonna have. and the pamphlet thing with the release form (they arent responsible if you fall off the horse and break your neck etc…) basically reiterated what she had said to me. at no point did it say anything about a revival weekend. it made it sound like a cozy cabin in the woods for couples to relax and enjoy themselves or participate in the many group activites specifically; the trail rides, fishing, paint ball,lounge by the pool, play basketball on their private court, etc.. there was even pictures on the pamphlet that i have no idea where they were taken but it sure wasnt where we stayed.
the only thing that was really there was the beaten down basketball “court” (packed dirt)and no nets!( backboard was nailed to a light pole) all the other stuff never existed!
what we did get was some jesus band playing into the wee hours of the night.(NOT mentioned in the pamphlet) we got lectured. we got hollered at and made an example of in front of about 75 people. then we were ignored. and my sister in law had the audacity to be pissed at US! (for making her look bad!..awwww)
we got a leaky cabin, no air conditioning, with a broken window the glass was so caked with dirt and grime you would have been able to see out of it even if it wasnt broken, complete with more spiders, ants and creepy crawlees that i could beat with a stick.
the “bed” was a mattress tossed on the floor. no headboard, no rails, no boxspring. the sheets had holes and the blanket was near threadbare and had holes. the “bathroom” used to be the closet (i know this cause the shelf and hanger rod was still in it) it had a shower head stuck in a hole in the wall and a tiny little drain thing in the “floor” that they made out of quick crete. did i mention the NO HOT WATER either?
that was 6 yrs ago this august. and i’m still fuming about it.
sry about the rant….LOL i dont think i spoke to her for about a year. i remember not long after i did though she brought up that they were doing it again that year. i think if looks could kill she’d be dead as a doornail.
she still does all kinds of nasty stuff like when my son goes to visit his cousins (birthday parties/etc) she says stuff to my son like “always remember GOD loves you” and “jesus is in you if you just look” which of course then my kid is like “who? what?” and i have to remind her for the zillionth time not to say shit like that to my kid. i dont go telling her kids things that go agaist their beliefs. again a little respect would be nice. i did get her “back” one year though. and i didnt even do it on purpose. it was when the first harry potter movie came out. her kids REALLY wanted to go see it but she wouldnt let them. so when the kids told me they wanted harry potter backpacks for christmas thats what i got them figuring the parents certainly werent about too. i heard she tossed them in the trash right after the opened them. at least thats what the kids told me. i didnt think she would go that far.
like i said before i have lots of “christian” stories. these examples are just my sister in law. and just a couple at that.
Liz, don’t worry about ranting. I trust you; feel free.
Liz, I’m not sure it’s wise to sheild your son from things like that.  At some point, he should know what all the talk is about – if for no other reason than letting him make up his own mind.  It’s your call, though.
If it’s any consolation, though – I’m fairly certain that God sees what your relatives are doing, and isn’t terribly pleased.  Like I said, people aren’t going to come to Christ under coercion or threat.
She’s right about one thing, though:  God does  love you and your family, even though you choose not to acknowledge it. (For my part, I hope you do some day, but that’s still your decision to make – I can’t force you, and won’t bother trying.)
I’m not sure why.  Given what she apparently believes, that was a very likely result.  The Harry Potter movies portray – and, by extension, advocate – witchcraft…something we Christians generally treat as a no-no.
No doubt.  I still think you’re dealing with someone who needs the ways of Christianity explained more clearly to her.  It’d be interesting to know what kind of church she attends, and what they believe.
Random points:
1. One can oppose discrimination and feel no emotional sympathy for the discriminated at the same time. Extreme example: when a murderer is murdered in prison.
2. Christmas deserves to be an official holiday for one perfectly good secular reason: Jesus was essentially the founder of Western civilization.
3. Each one of us is exposed to unrepresentative samples of outsider groups. The cultural fringe types one meets in online debate forums will tend to skew toward the angrier and moonbattier side of the spectrum – that oughta shed some light on Spats’ experiences with pagans. My limited in-person experiences with pagans dont’ tell me much because a) there were only two of ’em, and b) I’m not a typical conservative Christian. The conservative Christians I know are primarily nondenominationalists and Southern Baptists – and virtually all Texans. (And a Missouri libertarian.) They generally get along okay with nonbelievers, and none would misrepresent a scheduled outing that costs 200 bucks. There is ideological and cultural diversity among different Christian groups and within each one. The [insert group here] you see ain’t all of them; look around long enough and someone’ll suprise the heck out of you.
i think what i meant was (just took the long winded approach) is that what would she do if when her kids came over i started telling them that there is no god, no heaven, no hell, no jesus, and never has been, stuff like that? she’d be furious. but i’m supposed to just take it? and this is just her, there was also an incident with my sons kindergarden teacher (public school).
my hubby and i do have a plan for this particular problem involving religion and our son. when he’s old enough to grasp the concepts (10-12) my eric is going to explain the god stuff and i’m gonna explain the scientific stuff and let matt make his choice. whatever his choice we will respect it because he is his own person. we already have a pretty diverse household (atheist, wiccian, protestant) one more wouldnt matter much! LOL! its kinda funny the only time we have problems is when we visit the relatives or they visit us. they just cant seem to accept our choices. which to us is no big deal until they show up and make it into one. the mother in law isnt as vocal she’s more of a “while your not looking” kind of person.
FYI, here’s a mild example of my first point:
As much as I oppose vandalism, even I can’t feel very sorry for ol’ Soros.
To tie in with the first point, replace “discrimination” with general wrongdoing.
Liz,
I’m sorry about you had to endure that “weekend getaway”, but it could have been worse.
Your inlaws could have become “born-again muslims”.
Now THAT would’ve been a weekend from hell.
Between the burka sack races and playing “lop the head off the infidel”, you would have gone totally crazy!
😉
E-man LMAO i suppose it really couldnt have gotten much worse. being made an example of in front of all those people we had to be around all weekend wasnt….excatly…enjoyable. but lopping our heads off would indeed have been much worse.
Jesus was “essentially the founder of Western civilization?” I beg your pardon? Wasn’t Jesus a citizen of the ROMAN EMPIRE?
Jesus was “essentially the founder of Western civilization”? Um, wasn’t he a citizen of the ROMAN EMPIRE?
Caspian, it might help if you posted your comment before  the post went off the main page… :-/