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LC Xealot over at the Empire™ had a brilliant take on the immigration issue in this thread.
Read it here and see if this doesn’t just say it all:
The illegal immigration thing is an easy issue to explain. I had a liberal friend who argued with me on the subject, and I explained it like this:
The USA is our home, we live here… and we have rules, just like we have rules for our homes.
You don’t let just any idiot in your home, you have to get to know the person first.
1) Are you a felon? If so, I ain’t lettin’ you in my home. Why would anyone want criminals in their house… or their country?
2) Can you speak my language? If not, why would I want you in my home? What use are you to me if I cannot communicate with you.
3) Are you a mooch? I don’t let people in my home who raid my fridge without asking. Same goes for illegals and government services. If you bring your own beer though, we’re cool. I.e. if you work for it.
4) Do you know something? I’m not in the habit of letting dumb, lazy people in my home. Why would I want you here? We have enough dumb people to deal with as it is.
5) Do you know stuff about me, and do I know stuff about you? You don’t let someone who you know nothing about and who knows nothing about you into your home. So lets try some basic questions… like you know, What’s a Bill of Rights and where’s the statue of Liberty. And I’ll ask you some questions like “Where are you from?”
6) Are you sick or diseased? I don’t let people who are hacking up germs in my home, and we don’t want diseased people imported into our country either.
7) Do you hate me? If you espouse a hatred of me, I don’t want you in my home… or my country.
This is what Legal immigration is all about. Liberals make it out to be some racial thing, but you’ll notice that nowhere in that text did I ask or care about race or nation of origin. I don’t care where your house is, I don’t care what color your skin is. But I do care about those things above. We live here, this is our home, and it’s our right to say who comes in and who stays out. Anyone who says different has an agenda… a pretty messed up one at that.
“Indeed”, as the ACLU-boinking Instapundit might say…
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21 responses to “Memo to you pro-illegal immigration morons”
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All very entertaining, but not really applicable to today’s interconnected global economy.
The most basic case for loose immigration controls runs thusly: There are a great many jobs in America which do not pay well enough to attract the attention of all but the most desperate unemployed American workers. Consequently, there is a huge market for people who will actually consent to watching some WASP’s brattish kids for $800.00 a month or picking strawberry’s for three bucks an hour. The demand is there. Consequently, a great many illegal immigrants who seek nothing more than to better themselves through their own labour will attempt to enter America to fill this demand.
“But”, you may ask “Why can’t the desperate housewives and strawberry farmer’s just increase the wages they’re willing to pay for the jobs they want done? That would surely attract American workers and reduce the need for illegal immigrants”. Well, I suppose they could, but it wouldn’t be good for the economy.
Currently, the wages paid to illegal immigrants for things like babysitting and gardening and suchlike are low enough that the affluent middle class can easily afford them. Force these people to hire American workers at minimum wage and all these potential suburbanite employers will find themselves unable to afford the help. They’ll have to look after their own kids (in which case they’ll be less likely to work, earn their own money, and pump that back into the economy) and tend their own gardens (thereby forcing them to divert money into gardening which may otherwise have gone on the things they really want).
The strawberry manufactures will have to up the price of their strawberries to pay for the wage hike, which means they’ll sell less, which means their profit margins will fall, which means the very first thing they’ll do after hiring all these American workers will be to fire a good percentage of them, thus lowering the overall size of the workforce.
If that doesn’t convince you, let me ask you this:
What gives you, or any other American citizen, the right to a job at my company over an immigrant willing to do the same work for less money? Shouldn’t I, as an employer, have the right to choose who I hire without Government interference?
You also might find this info page from the Cato institute of some interest.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html
All very entertaining, but not really applicable to today’s interconnected global economy.
The most basic case for loose immigration controls runs thusly: There are a great many jobs in America which do not pay well enough to attract the attention of all but the most desperate unemployed American workers. Consequently, there is a huge market for people who will actually consent to watching some WASP’s brattish kids for $800.00 a month or picking strawberry’s for three bucks an hour. The demand is there. Consequently, a great many illegal immigrants who seek nothing more than to better themselves through their own labour will attempt to enter America to fill this demand.
“But”, you may ask “Why can’t the desperate housewives and strawberry farmer’s just increase the wages they’re willing to pay for the jobs they want done? That would surely attract American workers and reduce the need for illegal immigrants”. Well, I suppose they could, but it wouldn’t be good for the economy.
Currently, the wages paid to illegal immigrants for things like babysitting and gardening and suchlike are low enough that the affluent middle class can easily afford them. Force these people to hire American workers at minimum wage and all these potential suburbanite employers will find themselves unable to afford the help. They’ll have to look after their own kids (in which case they’ll be less likely to work, earn their own money, and pump that back into the economy) and tend their own gardens (thereby forcing them to divert money into gardening which may otherwise have gone on the things they really want).
The strawberry manufactures will have to up the price of their strawberries to pay for the wage hike, which means they’ll sell less, which means their profit margins will fall, which means the very first thing they’ll do after hiring all these American workers will be to fire a good percentage of them, thus lowering the overall size of the workforce.
If that doesn’t convince you, let me ask you this:
What gives you, or any other American citizen, the right to a job at my company over an immigrant willing to do the same work for less money? Shouldn’t I, as an employer, have the right to choose who I hire without Government interference?
You also might find this info page from the Cato institute of some interest.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html
All very entertaining, but not really applicable to today’s interconnected global economy.
The most basic case for loose immigration controls runs thusly: There are a great many jobs in America which do not pay well enough to attract the attention of all but the most desperate unemployed American workers. Consequently, there is a huge market for people who will actually consent to watching some WASP’s brattish kids for $800.00 a month or picking strawberry’s for three bucks an hour. The demand is there. Consequently, a great many illegal immigrants who seek nothing more than to better themselves through their own labour will attempt to enter America to fill this demand.
“But”, you may ask “Why can’t the desperate housewives and strawberry farmer’s just increase the wages they’re willing to pay for the jobs they want done? That would surely attract American workers and reduce the need for illegal immigrants”. Well, I suppose they could, but it wouldn’t be good for the economy.
Currently, the wages paid to illegal immigrants for things like babysitting and gardening and suchlike are low enough that the affluent middle class can easily afford them. Force these people to hire American workers at minimum wage and all these potential suburbanite employers will find themselves unable to afford the help. They’ll have to look after their own kids (in which case they’ll be less likely to work, earn their own money, and pump that back into the economy) and tend their own gardens (thereby forcing them to divert money into gardening which may otherwise have gone on the things they really want).
The strawberry manufactures will have to up the price of their strawberries to pay for the wage hike, which means they’ll sell less, which means their profit margins will fall, which means the very first thing they’ll do after hiring all these American workers will be to fire a good percentage of them, thus lowering the overall size of the workforce.
If that doesn’t convince you, let me ask you this:
What gives you, or any other American citizen, the right to a job at my company over an immigrant willing to do the same work for less money? Shouldn’t I, as an employer, have the right to choose who I hire without Government interference?
You also might find this info page from the Cato institute of some interest.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html
What, because you  say so?  You’re the one who thinks school boards have an inherent moral right to teach evolution as fact, despite  the fact that it’s still an unproven theory.  Remember?
The most basic case against  illegal immigration is this:  IT’S FUCKING ILLEGAL.
Thanks, but I do believe my royal flush trumps your pair of deuces.
And they’ll still have broken the law by not going through the legal immigration process to get here.  Consequently, they’re in violation of the law and have no rights to any benefits accorded to any legal citizen of this country.
In other words, Finchie, you cannot make one legitimate argument for illegal immigration that can get around the basic fact that it’s illegal.  You’ve lost the argument on its merits before you’ve even made it.  You may as well quit while you’re behind.
It’s called “high school help”.  And the Republican Party has long advocated a separate minimum wage for kids of high school age; in fact, current federal law allows a training wage of $4.25/hour for kids between 16 and 19 years old for the first three months.  That  is where your help comes from – not  from illegal alien criminals.
So?  Do you have a point, other than the one on top of your head?
Darn.
Double darn.
Bullshit and bullshit.  Nice try at a strawman, Finchie, but you lose – again.
Maybe the fact that we’re here legally and they aren’t?????
Or I might find it to be absolute bullshit.  It doesn’t matter if Cato’s name is  on this particular white paper – it’s still bullshit.  AFAIC, Cato can take those “findings” and shove them up their collective ass.
Try again, Finchie.  Preferably with an argument you have more than a snowball’s chace in Hell™ of winning.
What, because you  say so?  You’re the one who thinks school boards have an inherent moral right to teach evolution as fact, despite  the fact that it’s still an unproven theory.  Remember?
The most basic case against  illegal immigration is this:  IT’S FUCKING ILLEGAL.
Thanks, but I do believe my royal flush trumps your pair of deuces.
And they’ll still have broken the law by not going through the legal immigration process to get here.  Consequently, they’re in violation of the law and have no rights to any benefits accorded to any legal citizen of this country.
In other words, Finchie, you cannot make one legitimate argument for illegal immigration that can get around the basic fact that it’s illegal.  You’ve lost the argument on its merits before you’ve even made it.  You may as well quit while you’re behind.
It’s called “high school help”.  And the Republican Party has long advocated a separate minimum wage for kids of high school age; in fact, current federal law allows a training wage of $4.25/hour for kids between 16 and 19 years old for the first three months.  That  is where your help comes from – not  from illegal alien criminals.
So?  Do you have a point, other than the one on top of your head?
Darn.
Double darn.
Bullshit and bullshit.  Nice try at a strawman, Finchie, but you lose – again.
Maybe the fact that we’re here legally and they aren’t?????
Or I might find it to be absolute bullshit.  It doesn’t matter if Cato’s name is  on this particular white paper – it’s still bullshit.  AFAIC, Cato can take those “findings” and shove them up their collective ass.
Try again, Finchie.  Preferably with an argument you have more than a snowball’s chace in Hell™ of winning.
What, because you  say so?  You’re the one who thinks school boards have an inherent moral right to teach evolution as fact, despite  the fact that it’s still an unproven theory.  Remember?
The most basic case against  illegal immigration is this:  IT’S FUCKING ILLEGAL.
Thanks, but I do believe my royal flush trumps your pair of deuces.
And they’ll still have broken the law by not going through the legal immigration process to get here.  Consequently, they’re in violation of the law and have no rights to any benefits accorded to any legal citizen of this country.
In other words, Finchie, you cannot make one legitimate argument for illegal immigration that can get around the basic fact that it’s illegal.  You’ve lost the argument on its merits before you’ve even made it.  You may as well quit while you’re behind.
It’s called “high school help”.  And the Republican Party has long advocated a separate minimum wage for kids of high school age; in fact, current federal law allows a training wage of $4.25/hour for kids between 16 and 19 years old for the first three months.  That  is where your help comes from – not  from illegal alien criminals.
So?  Do you have a point, other than the one on top of your head?
Darn.
Double darn.
Bullshit and bullshit.  Nice try at a strawman, Finchie, but you lose – again.
Maybe the fact that we’re here legally and they aren’t?????
Or I might find it to be absolute bullshit.  It doesn’t matter if Cato’s name is  on this particular white paper – it’s still bullshit.  AFAIC, Cato can take those “findings” and shove them up their collective ass.
Try again, Finchie.  Preferably with an argument you have more than a snowball’s chace in Hell™ of winning.
I must say that the argument in favor of loose immigration due to wages and resulting affects on the economy is not a new one. But this makes some unspoken assumptions:
1) This assumes that an illegal at $3/hour is equally productive as an American at $6/hour. This isn’t always the case, especially in jobs where communication is required. How much time and effort must be wasted just to tell the illegal who speaks little or no English what to do? How much time and money must be expended training the illegal how to do things the American already knows? Before using this argument… you must take into account the TOTAL cost of employment, not just the wage factor. Also if they use government services or show up in the emergency room, they are getting free services which takes out as much money from the economy as the wages may save.
Also machines are often able to counteract the wage factor by automating many tasks. However people are not encouraged to automate if they have a readily available cheap labor source in the form of illegals. This in turn can have a stagnating effect on automation and machinery development.. this is one of the factors contributing to our need for outsourcing industry overseas. One trained american worker with the proper machinery might be worth 10 or 20 untrained illegals working without machinery. (that last part is supposition, but it has validity).
In other words just looking at wages is not a valid argument for loose immigration.
2) As for what gives an American a right to work for more? Perhaps the American knows more and is thus more efficient. Illegals often make it into the work force at fast food joints and other minimum wage jobs where scrutiny isn’t too tight… And I don’t know about you, but I think the drive thru would run a lot faster if the person at the other end could speak my language. Thatisall.
Spats:
Believe it or not, you’ve actually understated my position. Not only do school boards have the right to teach evolution, they have the duty to teach it. One cannot attain a comprehensive knowledge of biology, geology, physics, or paeleontology without some knowledge of evolution.
As for evolution being a “theory”, well…it is a theory, but not in the common sense of the word. The word theory, in the scientific sense, means “The explanation which best fits all the known facts.” Gravity is also a “theory” (and, I might add, the theory of gravity isn’t substantiated by anywhere near as much empirical evidence as the theory of evolution).
You, if I remember rightly, are a Young Earth Creationist. In the last thread I posted to here you said:
I have a question for you. We know for an absolute fact that the speed of light is constant. It always travels a 186,000 miles per second. This speed never varies, ever.
There are stars, visible to the naked eye, which are millions of light years away. The light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us. This means that the stars themselves must be millions of years old (at least). How do you reconcile this with your belief that the universe is only a few thousand years old? Anyway, getting back to the subject of immigration:
That’s a bad argument. The law’s against illegal immigration are borne of economic ignorance and a desire to pander to the economically ignorant.
The majority of illegal immigrants are males between 18 and 35. They come here specifically to earn a living. The American economy captures them during the most productive years of their lives. As such, they make enormous contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. A paper released by the Urban Institute, a Conservative pro-market think tank revealed that illegal immigrants contribute approximately $20 billion dollars a year net profit to the public sector. Doesn’t that sound good? Don’t you like money? 🙂
Also, as I said in my previous post, illegal manual labor frees up funds for their middle and upper income American employers. That money gets pumped back into the economy and generates yet more growth.
Not only that, but it is a simple economic fact that there are some jobs that American’s simply should not do because American’s have such incredibly high Opportunity Costs.
There will always be some unemployment. The unemployment rate depends on how quickly information spreads through an economy, and how much it costs. The unemployment rate is not just because of lag time from when a position opens and an applicant is hired. A bit of unemployment will result from search costs for both sides. An employer might not find the right person because the costs of advertising, time spent on interviews, etc., are too high for what the job is worth. Similarly, someone wanting that job might have to spend more than it’s worth to get it. We have social safety nets and very high wealth, so most Americans aren’t desperate enough scrape the barrel for jobs. The wealth is in the form of personal savings that people fall back on, assistance from family and friends, and the ability to borrow. Credit lines are an indicator of wealth, because they reflect the borrower’s expectations of his ability to repay, but more importantly, the lender’s expectations too.
What does that paragraph have to do with illegal immigration? Everything. Americans have such high opportunity costs that they don’t look as hard for work as illegal immigrants do — and illegal immigrants have extremely low opportunity costs by comparison. They’re the ones willing to “pound the pavement,” going from shop to shop asking if there’s any work to do. Immigrants are the ones willing to take jobs that, yes, Americans won’t do, not at those wages.
Here’s a case in point. Last year, Government crackdowns on illegal immigration caused such a labour drought that strawberry, tomato, and grape farmers in California were unable to reap enough crops to secure their profit margins. Even when they offered picking jobs at $8.50 an hour the interest from American labour pool was minimal. This proves that there are some jobs American’s simply won’t do.
Of course, this has a ripple effect. Less produce picked means less jobs for packers, drivers, and cleaners and less profit for their employers. This results in lower wages in these industries, layoffs, and less money being pumped back into the economy.
Again, the laws are stupid. They should be loosened drastically.
Good luck finding enough willing part time high school students to make up the shortfall created by deporting 10 million illegals who work six or seven days a week.
That’s easy for you to say. You’re not a strawberry farmer losing millions of dollars because of bad yields thanks to a government engineered labor shortfall.
Also, you’re forgetting the law of unintended consequences. If the price of strawberries goes up, so does the price of strawberry ice cream, shortcake, and anything else that uses strawberries. People will start buying substitutes and these other industries will suffer. Profits will fall. Costs will be cut to compensate. Jobs will be lost. Mostly American jobs. Maybe not necessarily with those companies, but perhaps with the packaging and transportation companies working alongside them.
At the end of the day, illegal labour benefits us far more than it costs us.
Regards,
Finchie.
Spats:
Believe it or not, you’ve actually understated my position. Not only do school boards have the right to teach evolution, they have the duty to teach it. One cannot attain a comprehensive knowledge of biology, geology, physics, or paeleontology without some knowledge of evolution.
As for evolution being a “theory”, well…it is a theory, but not in the common sense of the word. The word theory, in the scientific sense, means “The explanation which best fits all the known facts.” Gravity is also a “theory” (and, I might add, the theory of gravity isn’t substantiated by anywhere near as much empirical evidence as the theory of evolution).
You, if I remember rightly, are a Young Earth Creationist. In the last thread I posted to here you said:
I have a question for you. We know for an absolute fact that the speed of light is constant. It always travels a 186,000 miles per second. This speed never varies, ever.
There are stars, visible to the naked eye, which are millions of light years away. The light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us. This means that the stars themselves must be millions of years old (at least). How do you reconcile this with your belief that the universe is only a few thousand years old? Anyway, getting back to the subject of immigration:
That’s a bad argument. The law’s against illegal immigration are borne of economic ignorance and a desire to pander to the economically ignorant.
The majority of illegal immigrants are males between 18 and 35. They come here specifically to earn a living. The American economy captures them during the most productive years of their lives. As such, they make enormous contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. A paper released by the Urban Institute, a Conservative pro-market think tank revealed that illegal immigrants contribute approximately $20 billion dollars a year net profit to the public sector. Doesn’t that sound good? Don’t you like money? 🙂
Also, as I said in my previous post, illegal manual labor frees up funds for their middle and upper income American employers. That money gets pumped back into the economy and generates yet more growth.
Not only that, but it is a simple economic fact that there are some jobs that American’s simply should not do because American’s have such incredibly high Opportunity Costs.
There will always be some unemployment. The unemployment rate depends on how quickly information spreads through an economy, and how much it costs. The unemployment rate is not just because of lag time from when a position opens and an applicant is hired. A bit of unemployment will result from search costs for both sides. An employer might not find the right person because the costs of advertising, time spent on interviews, etc., are too high for what the job is worth. Similarly, someone wanting that job might have to spend more than it’s worth to get it. We have social safety nets and very high wealth, so most Americans aren’t desperate enough scrape the barrel for jobs. The wealth is in the form of personal savings that people fall back on, assistance from family and friends, and the ability to borrow. Credit lines are an indicator of wealth, because they reflect the borrower’s expectations of his ability to repay, but more importantly, the lender’s expectations too.
What does that paragraph have to do with illegal immigration? Everything. Americans have such high opportunity costs that they don’t look as hard for work as illegal immigrants do — and illegal immigrants have extremely low opportunity costs by comparison. They’re the ones willing to “pound the pavement,” going from shop to shop asking if there’s any work to do. Immigrants are the ones willing to take jobs that, yes, Americans won’t do, not at those wages.
Here’s a case in point. Last year, Government crackdowns on illegal immigration caused such a labour drought that strawberry, tomato, and grape farmers in California were unable to reap enough crops to secure their profit margins. Even when they offered picking jobs at $8.50 an hour the interest from American labour pool was minimal. This proves that there are some jobs American’s simply won’t do.
Of course, this has a ripple effect. Less produce picked means less jobs for packers, drivers, and cleaners and less profit for their employers. This results in lower wages in these industries, layoffs, and less money being pumped back into the economy.
Again, the laws are stupid. They should be loosened drastically.
Good luck finding enough willing part time high school students to make up the shortfall created by deporting 10 million illegals who work six or seven days a week.
That’s easy for you to say. You’re not a strawberry farmer losing millions of dollars because of bad yields thanks to a government engineered labor shortfall.
Also, you’re forgetting the law of unintended consequences. If the price of strawberries goes up, so does the price of strawberry ice cream, shortcake, and anything else that uses strawberries. People will start buying substitutes and these other industries will suffer. Profits will fall. Costs will be cut to compensate. Jobs will be lost. Mostly American jobs. Maybe not necessarily with those companies, but perhaps with the packaging and transportation companies working alongside them.
At the end of the day, illegal labour benefits us far more than it costs us.
Regards,
Finchie.
Spats:
Believe it or not, you’ve actually understated my position. Not only do school boards have the right to teach evolution, they have the duty to teach it. One cannot attain a comprehensive knowledge of biology, geology, physics, or paeleontology without some knowledge of evolution.
As for evolution being a “theory”, well…it is a theory, but not in the common sense of the word. The word theory, in the scientific sense, means “The explanation which best fits all the known facts.” Gravity is also a “theory” (and, I might add, the theory of gravity isn’t substantiated by anywhere near as much empirical evidence as the theory of evolution).
You, if I remember rightly, are a Young Earth Creationist. In the last thread I posted to here you said:
I have a question for you. We know for an absolute fact that the speed of light is constant. It always travels a 186,000 miles per second. This speed never varies, ever.
There are stars, visible to the naked eye, which are millions of light years away. The light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us. This means that the stars themselves must be millions of years old (at least). How do you reconcile this with your belief that the universe is only a few thousand years old? Anyway, getting back to the subject of immigration:
That’s a bad argument. The law’s against illegal immigration are borne of economic ignorance and a desire to pander to the economically ignorant.
The majority of illegal immigrants are males between 18 and 35. They come here specifically to earn a living. The American economy captures them during the most productive years of their lives. As such, they make enormous contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. A paper released by the Urban Institute, a Conservative pro-market think tank revealed that illegal immigrants contribute approximately $20 billion dollars a year net profit to the public sector. Doesn’t that sound good? Don’t you like money? 🙂
Also, as I said in my previous post, illegal manual labor frees up funds for their middle and upper income American employers. That money gets pumped back into the economy and generates yet more growth.
Not only that, but it is a simple economic fact that there are some jobs that American’s simply should not do because American’s have such incredibly high Opportunity Costs.
There will always be some unemployment. The unemployment rate depends on how quickly information spreads through an economy, and how much it costs. The unemployment rate is not just because of lag time from when a position opens and an applicant is hired. A bit of unemployment will result from search costs for both sides. An employer might not find the right person because the costs of advertising, time spent on interviews, etc., are too high for what the job is worth. Similarly, someone wanting that job might have to spend more than it’s worth to get it. We have social safety nets and very high wealth, so most Americans aren’t desperate enough scrape the barrel for jobs. The wealth is in the form of personal savings that people fall back on, assistance from family and friends, and the ability to borrow. Credit lines are an indicator of wealth, because they reflect the borrower’s expectations of his ability to repay, but more importantly, the lender’s expectations too.
What does that paragraph have to do with illegal immigration? Everything. Americans have such high opportunity costs that they don’t look as hard for work as illegal immigrants do — and illegal immigrants have extremely low opportunity costs by comparison. They’re the ones willing to “pound the pavement,” going from shop to shop asking if there’s any work to do. Immigrants are the ones willing to take jobs that, yes, Americans won’t do, not at those wages.
Here’s a case in point. Last year, Government crackdowns on illegal immigration caused such a labour drought that strawberry, tomato, and grape farmers in California were unable to reap enough crops to secure their profit margins. Even when they offered picking jobs at $8.50 an hour the interest from American labour pool was minimal. This proves that there are some jobs American’s simply won’t do.
Of course, this has a ripple effect. Less produce picked means less jobs for packers, drivers, and cleaners and less profit for their employers. This results in lower wages in these industries, layoffs, and less money being pumped back into the economy.
Again, the laws are stupid. They should be loosened drastically.
Good luck finding enough willing part time high school students to make up the shortfall created by deporting 10 million illegals who work six or seven days a week.
That’s easy for you to say. You’re not a strawberry farmer losing millions of dollars because of bad yields thanks to a government engineered labor shortfall.
Also, you’re forgetting the law of unintended consequences. If the price of strawberries goes up, so does the price of strawberry ice cream, shortcake, and anything else that uses strawberries. People will start buying substitutes and these other industries will suffer. Profits will fall. Costs will be cut to compensate. Jobs will be lost. Mostly American jobs. Maybe not necessarily with those companies, but perhaps with the packaging and transportation companies working alongside them.
At the end of the day, illegal labour benefits us far more than it costs us.
Regards,
Finchie.
The laws of economics are not so basic as you assume. In your analogy with the strawberries, you would be correct in assuming a removal of illegals might then drive up the price of strawberries… but it would lower our taxes. Less government services would be wasted on illegals. Less emergency room visits, since hospitals cannot turn away anyone there. Less crime from felons who hop the border… all of these items drain money from the economy even if the lower wages might save it.
Another factor to consider is the flow of money. If Customer A buys Item 1 from Person B… Person B uses that money to buy Item 2 from Person C and so and so forth. The money chain is unbroken (excepting the obvious trade deficit, but according to capitalist philosophy regarding this… it is actually okay, more on this later.)
However illegals break the chain, often sending as much money as they can back into mexico to feed starving families. Now I am not unsympathetic to the shitholes that are mexico, cuba, etc… But that doesn’t mean we should be importing this problem into our country.
So even though they may work for less, they are not recycling that money back into our economy and drain money from government and other sources. Also many illegals drive with no license or insurance. When they get into an accident that money is lost.. whether the other driver must pay or his insurance company (which raises rates for the rest of us). Once again you must see the total cost of illegal employment to the economy, not merely the wages.
Also part of the reason Americans are not willing to work for such low wages is that we articially control some aspects of our economy through regulation, minimum wage controls and the like. The fact is the minimum wage is too high, and with the benefits of government services from disability (social security), welfare or just plain suing someone, there is no motivation to work for less. Also labor unions are partly to blame for this. They were once useful to prevent gross misuse of labor… but now I see bus drivers making over $60,000/year. So of course our expectations for cash are much higher than illegals.. who come from a slum where $5 is a lot of money. But this is indicative of a larger problem with regulation, unions and American laziness that must be ADDRESSED, not just ignored and temporarily fixed with illegal immigrants.
It’s too typical of our society these days to just put a bandaid on a problem… and that’s what loose immigration is.. a bandaid to cover problems of too much government control in the economy and a resulting laziness that creates this supposed gap in the economy you would have illegals fix. Read up on the theories and philosophies of those such as Ayn Rand or Adam Smith and then come back to me with an original argument.
Believe it or not, you’ve completely missed the point.  This isn’t TalkOrigins, Finchie – it’s Spatula City BBS!, and Evolution’s True Believers™ over here are considered to be idiots.
Well, damn!!!.  How did  we get along before Darwin was even born?!?!??!  How absolutely stoooooopid  we must have been!!!
Orrrrrrrrrrrr…maybe you’re overestimating Darwin’s worth to the scientific community just a tad, hm?
Sorry, Finchie – you can’t move the goalposts over here.  On TalkOrigins, maybe, but not here.
Uh, Newton might beg to differ.  Or have you never heard of the “law of gravity”???
Granted.
Just for the sake of the argument – do you know for an absolute fact that said stars are “millions of light years away”, and that “light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us”?  You’ve taken a ruler and measured?
Just because A is true does not automatically make B true.  Suggest you try again.
Oh…well…I just won’t use it then.  (NOT!!!!!)
You’re gonna have to come up with a better rejoinder than that, bud.  The fact remains that you cannot trump the argument that illegal immigration is just that – illegal.
When you do, I might  listen.  At least, listen without laughing my ass off.
The laws against illegal immigration (note the lack of an apostrophe) are borne of a desire not to see this country overrun with people who don’t need to be here and aren’t supposed to be here.  And they’re enforced in Mexico against the Guatemalans.
Oh, but they don’t count, do they?
I like money fine, moron.  But I like law-abiding citizens a lot more.  And your beloved 18-to-35ers have already demonstrated that they don’t intend to follow our laws.
But you love criminals if they can make lotsa money, don’t you, Finchie?  Isn’t that right?
That money gets sent back home to Mejico.  Try again.
That so, Finchie?  Tell me, then, my little elitist snot – what jobs are Americans too good  for?  What jobs out there are beneath  an American to do?  Grease-trap cleaner?  Topless dancer?  Maybe “high school evolution teacher”?
NAWWWWWWWW!!!!!  Really???
Gee, and here I always thought the unemployment rate depended on how many people didn’t have jobs in relation to the total population.
Finchie, can you save me the Keynesian bullshit and just focus on the fact that illegal immigration is ILLEGAL, please?
Oh, I think we’ll manage, thanks very much.
Oh, you mean by the government ENFORCING THE LAWS THAT WE THE PEOPLE HAD THEM MAKE???
Go fuck yourself, Finchie.  The next time you spew that bullshit line here, you’re toast.  You will not  blame the United States government for enforcing the laws of the United States on this  blog.
Is that clear, assclown?
Have a nice day.
Believe it or not, you’ve completely missed the point.  This isn’t TalkOrigins, Finchie – it’s Spatula City BBS!, and Evolution’s True Believers™ over here are considered to be idiots.
Well, damn!!!.  How did  we get along before Darwin was even born?!?!??!  How absolutely stoooooopid  we must have been!!!
Orrrrrrrrrrrr…maybe you’re overestimating Darwin’s worth to the scientific community just a tad, hm?
Sorry, Finchie – you can’t move the goalposts over here.  On TalkOrigins, maybe, but not here.
Uh, Newton might beg to differ.  Or have you never heard of the “law of gravity”???
Granted.
Just for the sake of the argument – do you know for an absolute fact that said stars are “millions of light years away”, and that “light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us”?  You’ve taken a ruler and measured?
Just because A is true does not automatically make B true.  Suggest you try again.
Oh…well…I just won’t use it then.  (NOT!!!!!)
You’re gonna have to come up with a better rejoinder than that, bud.  The fact remains that you cannot trump the argument that illegal immigration is just that – illegal.
When you do, I might  listen.  At least, listen without laughing my ass off.
The laws against illegal immigration (note the lack of an apostrophe) are borne of a desire not to see this country overrun with people who don’t need to be here and aren’t supposed to be here.  And they’re enforced in Mexico against the Guatemalans.
Oh, but they don’t count, do they?
I like money fine, moron.  But I like law-abiding citizens a lot more.  And your beloved 18-to-35ers have already demonstrated that they don’t intend to follow our laws.
But you love criminals if they can make lotsa money, don’t you, Finchie?  Isn’t that right?
That money gets sent back home to Mejico.  Try again.
That so, Finchie?  Tell me, then, my little elitist snot – what jobs are Americans too good  for?  What jobs out there are beneath  an American to do?  Grease-trap cleaner?  Topless dancer?  Maybe “high school evolution teacher”?
NAWWWWWWWW!!!!!  Really???
Gee, and here I always thought the unemployment rate depended on how many people didn’t have jobs in relation to the total population.
Finchie, can you save me the Keynesian bullshit and just focus on the fact that illegal immigration is ILLEGAL, please?
Oh, I think we’ll manage, thanks very much.
Oh, you mean by the government ENFORCING THE LAWS THAT WE THE PEOPLE HAD THEM MAKE???
Go fuck yourself, Finchie.  The next time you spew that bullshit line here, you’re toast.  You will not  blame the United States government for enforcing the laws of the United States on this  blog.
Is that clear, assclown?
Have a nice day.
Believe it or not, you’ve completely missed the point.  This isn’t TalkOrigins, Finchie – it’s Spatula City BBS!, and Evolution’s True Believers™ over here are considered to be idiots.
Well, damn!!!.  How did  we get along before Darwin was even born?!?!??!  How absolutely stoooooopid  we must have been!!!
Orrrrrrrrrrrr…maybe you’re overestimating Darwin’s worth to the scientific community just a tad, hm?
Sorry, Finchie – you can’t move the goalposts over here.  On TalkOrigins, maybe, but not here.
Uh, Newton might beg to differ.  Or have you never heard of the “law of gravity”???
Granted.
Just for the sake of the argument – do you know for an absolute fact that said stars are “millions of light years away”, and that “light from those stars has taken millions of years to get to us”?  You’ve taken a ruler and measured?
Just because A is true does not automatically make B true.  Suggest you try again.
Oh…well…I just won’t use it then.  (NOT!!!!!)
You’re gonna have to come up with a better rejoinder than that, bud.  The fact remains that you cannot trump the argument that illegal immigration is just that – illegal.
When you do, I might  listen.  At least, listen without laughing my ass off.
The laws against illegal immigration (note the lack of an apostrophe) are borne of a desire not to see this country overrun with people who don’t need to be here and aren’t supposed to be here.  And they’re enforced in Mexico against the Guatemalans.
Oh, but they don’t count, do they?
I like money fine, moron.  But I like law-abiding citizens a lot more.  And your beloved 18-to-35ers have already demonstrated that they don’t intend to follow our laws.
But you love criminals if they can make lotsa money, don’t you, Finchie?  Isn’t that right?
That money gets sent back home to Mejico.  Try again.
That so, Finchie?  Tell me, then, my little elitist snot – what jobs are Americans too good  for?  What jobs out there are beneath  an American to do?  Grease-trap cleaner?  Topless dancer?  Maybe “high school evolution teacher”?
NAWWWWWWWW!!!!!  Really???
Gee, and here I always thought the unemployment rate depended on how many people didn’t have jobs in relation to the total population.
Finchie, can you save me the Keynesian bullshit and just focus on the fact that illegal immigration is ILLEGAL, please?
Oh, I think we’ll manage, thanks very much.
Oh, you mean by the government ENFORCING THE LAWS THAT WE THE PEOPLE HAD THEM MAKE???
Go fuck yourself, Finchie.  The next time you spew that bullshit line here, you’re toast.  You will not  blame the United States government for enforcing the laws of the United States on this  blog.
Is that clear, assclown?
Have a nice day.
Does this mean you won’t publish any more of my comments? I’d just like to know before I respond both to Xealot and yourself.
Does this mean you won’t publish any more of my comments? I’d just like to know before I respond both to Xealot and yourself.
Does this mean you won’t publish any more of my comments? I’d just like to know before I respond both to Xealot and yourself.
Actually, maybe I’m being a little harsh.
Sure, go ahead and make whatever accusation you wish.  Just don’t expect either myself or Xealot (or any of the other Six Or Seven Who Still Read This Blog™) to let it pass without challenge.
It’s plainly asinine to accuse the United States of creating a labor shortage simply because it wants to control the conditions under which people emigrate hereto.
The fact remains that your beloved illegals are violating the law by being here in the first place.  Any labor shortage that occurs because there are not enough citizens to fill a position is a labor shortage that’s supposed to happen anyway.  Your beloved illegals aren’t supposed to be here anyway; if the laws are enforced the way they’re written, your homies on the strawberry farms don’t have access to a labor pool they shouldn’t, by law, have access to in the first place.
They.  Are.  Illegal.  Period.
Actually, maybe I’m being a little harsh.
Sure, go ahead and make whatever accusation you wish.  Just don’t expect either myself or Xealot (or any of the other Six Or Seven Who Still Read This Blog™) to let it pass without challenge.
It’s plainly asinine to accuse the United States of creating a labor shortage simply because it wants to control the conditions under which people emigrate hereto.
The fact remains that your beloved illegals are violating the law by being here in the first place.  Any labor shortage that occurs because there are not enough citizens to fill a position is a labor shortage that’s supposed to happen anyway.  Your beloved illegals aren’t supposed to be here anyway; if the laws are enforced the way they’re written, your homies on the strawberry farms don’t have access to a labor pool they shouldn’t, by law, have access to in the first place.
They.  Are.  Illegal.  Period.
Actually, maybe I’m being a little harsh.
Sure, go ahead and make whatever accusation you wish.  Just don’t expect either myself or Xealot (or any of the other Six Or Seven Who Still Read This Blog™) to let it pass without challenge.
It’s plainly asinine to accuse the United States of creating a labor shortage simply because it wants to control the conditions under which people emigrate hereto.
The fact remains that your beloved illegals are violating the law by being here in the first place.  Any labor shortage that occurs because there are not enough citizens to fill a position is a labor shortage that’s supposed to happen anyway.  Your beloved illegals aren’t supposed to be here anyway; if the laws are enforced the way they’re written, your homies on the strawberry farms don’t have access to a labor pool they shouldn’t, by law, have access to in the first place.
They.  Are.  Illegal.  Period.
Evolution is still a theory, and though I do not mind schools teaching it as such (a theory)… they do not. They teach it as established truth, which is a gross misrepresentation. I believe in a concept called “micro-evolution” which is a logical combination of “intelligent design” or creationism and evolutionary theory. That is to say God or some other higher intelligence created life, various species, humans, etc… But that since that time of creation they have evolved in “micro-evolutionary” ways. That is to say, species could diverge into subspecies and local variations, even into closely related species such as Wolves & Coyotes, which although seperate species still represent a single like-kind.
But no matter which variation you believe in, pure creationism, micro-evolution or public school darwinism, the school system must represent theories as theories and truths as truths. I would not expect them to state my theory or strict creationism as established truth… neither shoudl they state evolution as established truth.
To use gravity as an example is a fallacy. Gravity is NOT a theory. There are theories regarding gravity, such as the gravitational constant and it’s relation to several physics equations. There are many theories which abound about the origin of gravitational forces (Some even liken it to the nuclear forces, such as the strong and weak nuclear forces.). But the concept of Gravity is a known thing. You Jump. You Fall back down. Gravity is a word to describe this phenomenon. This is known established truth, and is not theory. Evolution is not anywhere near as established.
And you also mention that light takes millions of years to travel from distant stars. This, incidently, is closer to truth than evolution is. Light is proven by documented experimentation to travel at a specific speed (note, not velocity.. I do include a vector). Thus to say an object of such distance would have light waves that take so long to reach is as near to established truth as physics can get in our time.
But this is where Creationism or Intelligent Design tells us something. Any being or entity capable of creating the universe could very easily create the conditions you describe in such a way as to make the universe seem older than it is.
Also such a being need not create the universe in that manner. The rest of the universe could be positively ancient and only the Earth created at the indicated time. Once again in an aged and mature state. Any being powerful enough to create could easily create the illusion of age or create different things at different times. Thus the speed of light in reference to the age of stars distant from us is not, in itself, proof of the failure of creationism or the superiority of evolution.
For my on topic matter, refer to my other post.